[WIP/RELEASE] Alfa Romeo T33 "Periscopio/Fleron"

This project has been merged with the 1967 World Sportscar Championship Mod and the Alfa has been updated in that mod: https://www.evolution-modding.net/t2513-wip-1967-world-sportscar-championship-mod

Lokkin' very nice so far................

A very good piece of work looking forward to having it in game

That's a helluva first post! Welcome and thank you for this project!

Great stuff and well done for learning to do this, keep up the excellent work.

oh yes this version is very great GPL4EVER

Thanks for the kind words people, here is some more progress: headlights, brakelights, new rim and light tex and some other stuff (finishing the basic exterior pretty much)..
More stuff to come next weekend hopefully







*btw fixed this weird taillight shadow

Great stuff

Looks really good...

Keep up the great work !!!

*Im writing this more for myself than anything else   skins i have to make:

The car was raced in 1967 in the:
12h of Sebring:
#65 driven by Andrea De Adamich and Teodoro Zeccoli


#66 driven by Roberto Bussinello and Nanni Galli


Nurburgring 1000km:
#20 driven by Andrea De Adamich and Nanni Galli


#21 driven by Giacomo "Geki" Russo and Giancarlo Baghetti


#22 driven by Roberto Bussinello and Teodoro Zeccoli


Targa Florio:
#192 driven by Nani Galli and Ignazio Giunti


#170 driven by Andrea De Adamich and Jean Rolland


#190 driven by Jo Bonnier and Giancarlo Baghetti


#200 driven by Giacomo "Geki" Russo and Nino Todaro


The car was also raced in Mugello, but in a different configuration (basically a "langheck/longtail" like the Porsches, or should i say "coda lunga" to be unnecessarily italian   ) so i wont be making that now.

It was entered at Le Mans, but didnt start the race.

Some remarks about the caractheristics of the car: the fuel-injected 90 degree 2.0L flatplane crank V8 made 270hp at 9600RPM, the gearbox was a Colotti 6 speed (which is amazing for the time), the car weighed around 580kg dry, and although it looks smooth and is very light, the top speed is speculated to only be somewhere around 265kp/h due to the "periscope" intake creating drag and also some front end lift at high speeds. Since there are no wings on the car or the .HDC file, i used the "RadiatorLift" to simulate the lift caused by the periscope. At speeds above 150kp/h this can cause some understeer mid corner, followed by some snap oversteer due to the cars balance being at the rear, so the car keeps you awake while sliding, which is very fun indeed. But while being slidey its still very pointy and nimble which i think simulates the small size of the thing pretty nicely. It also stops very well thanks to the small weight and 4 disc brakes. Weight can increase though thanks to the twin 98litre fuel tanks integrated into the H pattern aluminium chassis. However the prototype 2L regulations of the time would not allow teams to run more than 100kg of fuel. I couldnt find information about the gearing, but i made some 4 final drive settings which make sense and go from 240kp/h theoretical top speed to 280kp/h. Even though the top speed is a bit lacking compared to the 2L Porsche prototypes, the Alfa will leave them in its dust when accelerating out of a corner with its stronger engine and more gears.

In real life the car was plagued with suspension failures. I will need to find a way to simulate this, but not to the point where it ruins the experience. Any suggestions would be welcome. The setup is double wishbone + anti-roll bar front and lower wishbone/top links + anti-roll bar rear.

Wow---you have really done your homework and the description of the handling characteristics make perfect sense. I'm not sure whether I would try to emulate suspension failures in GTR2 as , frankly, even though I've done physics for years, I don't know how to do that.
This should be a very exciting car when you are done.  Nice to have you aboard and committed.

DRAGON

P.S.---what physics program are you going to use to create the handling ---I'm still using Kangaloosh.

WHIPCRACKER wrote:

Wow---you have really done your homework and the description of the handling characteristics make perfect sense. I'm not sure whether I would try to emulate suspension failures in GTR2 as , frankly, even though I've done physics for years, I don't know how to do that.
This should be a very exciting car when you are done.  Nice to have you aboard and committed.

DRAGON

P.S.---what physics program are you going to use to create the handling ---I'm still using Kangaloosh.

Thank you, thats what i was thinking as well, i remember from some rFactor physics work i did that there isnt really any obvious way to make the suspension fail without contact. So i suppose its the same for GTR2 with the 2 sharing the ISImotor engine.

This might not be a popular opinion but I'd be a little careful of ABLMS base physics as I have had to change a lot of them ---really look at all parameters---tires included as , if I remember---they are way too sticky---period-wise.
Don't get me wrong---Great mod for models but in order for cars to perform properly with realistic top speeds etc. due diligence is necessary.

WHIPCRACKER wrote:

P.S.---what physics program are you going to use to create the handling ---I'm still using Kangaloosh.

Sorry didnt see the P. S.

Well i was gonna use the suspension editor 2 but i cant find it anymore since RfactorCentral is down, so i guess Notepad will do... Or maybe some more digging around the old forums.
Ye Kangaloosh Car Factory

Easy Engine Editor (the last place on the internet where i could find it):
https://xtremefactor.es/downs/download.html?archivo=http://www.descargas.xtremefactor.es/rFactor/plugins_rFactor/PhysicsEditor1_88A.zip

Did some fiddling in it:
Alfa Romeo T33 Stradale Torque and Power curve:


My engine data in the Engine Editor:


Cant get much more realistic than that

WHIPCRACKER wrote:

This might not be a popular opinion but I'd be a little careful of ABLMS base physics as I have had to change a lot of them ---really look at all parameters---tires included as , if I remember---they are way too sticky---period-wise.
Don't get me wrong---Great mod for models but in order for cars to perform properly with realistic top speeds etc. due diligence is necessary.

Well being unpopular doesnt make it less true

You are right, thats why i asked BorekS for permission to use tyres from his LMC mod. He granted it. I will also have to fiddle around with suspension travel and other stuff for my Alfa since the ABLMS one is way too stiff and F1 car like..
I actually converted the 1967 ABLMS season to GTL a couple of months back and i had to change every single cars physics in order to make it feel realistic and competitive with LMC (the ABLMS cars are way too fast and stable).

I see they played around a lot with the front of the car. The outboard air inlets (below the headlights) changed shape a number of times and they were even deleted... Then the front grille itself was also slightly altered throughout the year, then they introduced the big, T33/2-esque headlights... And the rear deck evolved too. The first long tail seen at Le Mans partially covered the rear wheels and the periscopio was gone but, by the final hillclimbs of the year, a long tail that went around and over the rear wheels was devised and that was eventually used on the T33/2.

Here is the short-tail with the big headlights in July '67, but this setup was first seen at Rossfeld


and here is the later season longtail setup but with the smaller headlights


You can read more here> http://www.robertlittle.us/t33chronologygerman.html

DarkSide wrote:

I see they played around a lot with the front of the car. The outboard air inlets (below the headlights) changed shape a number of times and they were even deleted... Then the front grille itself was also slightly altered throughout the year, then they introduced the big, T33/2-esque headlights... And the rear deck evolved too. The first long tail seen at Le Mans partially covered the rear wheels and the periscopio was gone but, by the final hillclimbs of the year, a long tail that went around and over the rear wheels was devised and that was eventually used on the T33/2.

Here is the short-tail with the big headlights in July '67, but this setup was first seen at Rossfeld


and here is the later season longtail setup but with the smaller headlights


You can read more here> http://www.robertlittle.us/t33chronologygerman.html

Thanks for the info, i was aware of some of these modifications. I might try to make them in the future, but for now the Periscopio is more than enoguh labour

Cool---I'm using Tom's Engine Shop and Kangaloosh---in order for Kangaloosh to work I had to stop all Windows updates about 2 1/2 years ago otherwise it would not load.
Keep on going. BorekS is a great guy---great job on the Lemans Classics.

Great news! I got the green light from BorekS of the LMClassics mod, Antonio from the ABLMS and from Ginetto and his team from the GPL mod to use the stuff i requested and listed in this post.

Great news indeed!

If you need skins done, I've painted them all for the 33 Stradale a few years ago and I could easily remake them for your model instead, if you want. Great to be finally able to have a Periscopica.
https://www.evolution-modding.net/t893p225-alfa-romeo-33-stradale?highlight=alfa+romeo

Zexer wrote:

If you need skins done, I've painted them all for the 33 Stradale a few years ago and I could easily remake them for your model instead, if you want. Great to be finally able to have a Periscopica.
https://www.evolution-modding.net/t893p225-alfa-romeo-33-stradale?highlight=alfa+romeo

Hmm well, thank you for the offer, there are quite a few details (for example the front intake being different on almost every skin and i wont be modelling the "holes" into the models because i dont think its worth it having to make 3 or more different models which takes time and space in the .gtr file so that will have to be done visually on the skins, also badges, logos, etc..) which would need special attention, so i would have to make at least 3 different templates. Will see, if i need any help ill let you know. So far im good, still need to rework the mesh, add details like belts, fuel caps, badges, which will take me 2 days at least, so expect an update on the skins situation on sunday or monday.

So, im finally home and i had a very busy evening, so here are the fruits of todays work: i basically redid the whole mesh, many textures, updated the wheels, all in all A LOT of appearance work. Fixed the weird shadow thing, added a 3D logo/badge, exhaust mounts, clear headlights etc.. etc..:  



Now, i need some stylistic advice, should i keep it kinda "matte" or go gloss:

Matte:





Gloss:





I personally like the gloss style more, but it wont really go hand in hand with BorekS LMC mod so that may be a little concern..

Also beware! If you crash, you might loose your lights





The headlights (tape or no tape) and wheel color will change depending on the skin.

Some may notice that i also removed the mirrors, for now. Thats because the car had 2 variations of mirrors, the one that came with the model, and the "mirror on a stick" as i call it, which can be seen in the reference pics above. I will make both variations.

Looking great! I would say go gloss as it doesn't look overdone judging by your pics.

very good