The forgotten "Silberpfeile"

Hi guys, I just want to start to start a discussion about some of the forgotten 30's GP cars, so here it goes...

First off we'd have the Auto Union P-Wagen (P-Car), which was the first Auto-Union GP car ever constructed, it never really raced and is rarely mentioned, here are some pics:



compared to the later Typ A "Langheck" (longtail) it had the front grille further inwards with a visible hole, the A had the grille right at the very front of the nosecone it also had tiny wings behind the front wheels on some test runs (not visible on these pictures).

The specs were the same as it was used as a basis for further racing without major change.



Next off, the awkward middle child between the Typ C and Typ D, I dind't find any specs of this car and just 2 pics + a blueprint, some video material exists though, viewable here:
 
It raced only in some GP's, mostly not being mentioned at all or only as another Typ D, here are some pictures for what to look while watching these videos:

as you can see it's very Typ C-esque with already having a V12 instead of a V16, shorter chassis, larger fuel tank on the sides.
Found no further information 


And now to not just keep it at Auto Union, here's a mostly unknown Mercedes record car, the T80:
Specs: 

Engine: 44.5L Daimler-Benz DB603 Inverted V12, 3000HP
Proposed Speed Target: 470 mph/750 kmh
Six wheels, mid engine

It sadly never ran at all, though it being completely finished and ready to run, it's run was hindered by WWII breaking out at exactly the time the car was ready, it was restored and is being displayed at the Mercedes Museum in Stuttgart 

Some picutres of this beauty:





And this is it now on display:






For closing, I hope you liked this excursion into old times when "seatbelt" or "grip" were words nobody's ever heard of and maybe learned something new along the lines. 

Have a nice day, teddyator

What about the Mercedes W165 used only once - Tripoli GP 1939? It had the small 1.5L (voiturette-class) engine but it wasn't eligible for racing post war like the Alfa Romeos were...

Fascinating stuff Zexer.

GeeDee wrote:

Fascinating stuff Zexer.

I think you may have posted in the wrong topic Gee! 

DarkSide wrote:

What about the Mercedes W165 used only once - Tripoli GP 1939? It had the small 1.5L (voiturette-class) engine but it wasn't eligible for racing post war like the Alfa Romeos were...

It is a quite interesting car indeed, though it dominated the only race it raced in + it's at display and is being frequently driven at classic evnts, even at Goodwood occasionally.
So it's much more well known...

GeeDee wrote:

Fascinating stuff Zexer Teddy.

Second time today I have gotten someones name wrong!!!

teddyator wrote:

DarkSide wrote:

What about the Mercedes W165 used only once - Tripoli GP 1939? It had the small 1.5L (voiturette-class) engine but it wasn't eligible for racing post war like the Alfa Romeos were...

It is a quite interesting car indeed, though it dominated the only race it raced in + it's at display and is being frequently driven at classic evnts, even at Goodwood occasionally.
So it's much more well known...

Yeah and the T80 is hanging on a wall in Mercedes' Museum, so much 'in sight' that even I got to take a picture next to it

it would be interesting to talk about the different versions of Type C's too, some with covered front suspension assembly (mercedes style) and some, earlier, with the suspension out in the open

Yeah, that's indeed very interesting, is propably dependent on what track they were running on or it was just random... I actually can't see any pattern there. A much more interesting car is the C/D with a typ D chassis and typ C engine, built for hillclimbs

teddyator wrote:

Yeah, that's indeed very interesting, is propably dependent on what track they were running on or it was just random... I actually can't see any pattern there. A much more interesting car is the C/D with a typ D chassis and typ C engine, built for hillclimbs

Where was that used? The Type C V16 engine was longer than the V12, I don't think it could've been fit on the shorter Type D Chassis...

It was a legthened d-type chassis with a V16 engine, the car was used on hillclimbs only, including the 1939 Großglockner Bergrennen

To get some clearence of what I meant here are some pictures of the car so you can get an Idea of what I was talking about(It's actually one of the few surviving Auto Unions and is displayed at the Audi Museum in Ingolstadt):





And Minichamps will be releasing a 1/43 DieCast model, so another Silver Arrow added to my collection.



AND! I've found another picture of the '38 Type D (the middle child, I'll call it the MkI because of confusion otherwise):

I'm also pretty sure this car was still designed by Ferdinand Porsche, hence the similar design to the older cars, whereafter people at Zwickau (AU's racing department HQ and second factory) found out the car wasn't as competetive as they thought and needed to hire a different designer for the car's redesign as Adolf Hitler needed Porsche for the VW Typ 1 (Beetle) project.
All of this is a theory but seems pretty plausible.

Eberan von Eberhorst designed the Typ C and Typ D. Porsche's involvement ended with the Typ B. That No. 125 is a late Typ C. They only used Typ C's in hillclimbs, as far as I know. In 1939 too, only Typ C's. They even came to Romania in '38-'39 with the Typ C at Feleac, Brasov & Bucuresti.

Not trying to be rude here but I think you've got some facts jubeled up, the Typ C was designed in 1936 by Ferdinand Porsche as one the last known AU cars developed by him, the last being the Typ C Streamliner, the Typ C had almost no changes differentiating it from the Typ B, it had a streamlined front nosecone and a bigger engine displacement, it raced in '36 and '37 with some rare apperiances on hillclimbs later in the period. That #125 is a typ C/D hillclimb special, it looks like a typ C from the rear, when you look at it from the front it was a '39 spec Typ D.
The typ C couldn't even have been racing in '39 as in 1938 the "750 kg" rule was abandoned, it's name is self explaniatory, prohibiting the cars from exciding 750kg, in 1938 and '39 they used a formula limiting the cars engine to a displacement of 3 Litres, the Typ C had a ~6L 16° V16.


All of this can ALSO be found on Wikipedia and other sites, 20mins worth of digging would reveal the same facts, I just summed it up here for better understanding and without the need to search all over the internet

Hope that cleared things up a bit for you. ;D
Still great that I found someone who's interested in the same cars as I!

Would never take Wiki as the final word Else, interesting, faszinating stuff.

Thanks man, appreciate it

I did say "also" and that was just to point out that wiki os right this time/this all would have been "avoided" by a quick check

teddyator wrote:

Not trying to be rude here but I think you've got some facts jubeled up, the Typ C was designed in 1936 by Ferdinand Porsche as one the last known AU cars developed by him, the last being the Typ C Streamliner, the Typ C had almost no changes differentiating it from the Typ B, it had a streamlined front nosecone and a bigger engine displacement, it raced in '36 and '37 with some rare apperiances on hillclimbs later in the period. That #125 is a typ C/D hillclimb special, it looks like a typ C from the rear, when you look at it from the front it was a '39 spec Typ D.
The typ C couldn't even have been racing in '39 as in 1938 the "750 kg" rule was abandoned, it's name is self explaniatory, prohibiting the cars from exciding 750kg, in 1938 and '39 they used a formula limiting the cars engine to a displacement of 3 Litres, the Typ C had a ~6L 16° V16.


All of this can ALSO be found on Wikipedia and other sites, 20mins worth of digging would reveal the same facts, I just summed it up here for better understanding and without the need to search all over the internet

Hope that cleared things up a bit for you. ;D
Still great that I found someone who's interested in the same cars as I!

Hillclimb events had no business with the 750kg rule which was in place only for the GP European Championship. That means that, in non-championship Grand Prix, the Type C was still able to run and that's exactly what Auto Union did in 1938 and 1939. As I stated, one of the last GPs it ran was the 1939 Bucharest GP where it won being driven by Hans Stuck. The level of involvement of Dr. Porsche past the Typ B model for me is not that clear as he was more busy with the Beetle and von Eberhorst had a much bigger role into updating the B to the C, although the Typ D is the first car done by him from `top to bottom`.

DarkSide wrote:

Hillclimb events had no business with the 750kg rule

 That is true, but a select few events had the car limited to 3L engines, with most being run without rules though, that's right. The Typ C/D ran only on a very small amount of venues and was used for hillclimbs only.


The thing with the non-Championship GP's is also right, I just didn't know they were still running the Typ C, considering the Typ D's superior handling capabilities. 

Also, every where I looked (the book "Silberpfeile Die legendären Rennwagen 1934 bis 1955" as well as Wikipedia and other websites it states that Ferdinand Porsche oversaw the development and construction of the Typ C as well as it's streamliner version with Ferdinand even standing in the crowd watching Bernd Rosemeyer doing his record attempts.

Gentlemen......

I think you are right Joe, we should move on, this argument isn't bringing us any further...