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 Various code line explanations?

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Uncomman

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PostSubject: Re: Various code line explanations?   Tue 30 Oct 2018, 3:10 am

Thanks jghinkle that makes sense. Not a significant amount of utility.

So other than creating individual .hdc's. there is no other way to make individual cars in a field faster or slower?
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philrob

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PostSubject: Re: Various code line explanations?   Tue 30 Oct 2018, 8:26 am

The other method used to control car speeds is using the Talent files.

CAR FILE
PitGroup="Shelby"
Driver="Bernard Peruch"
Description="AC Cobra"

TALENT FILE
Bernard Peruch
{
//Driver Info
Abbreviation=B. Peruch
Nationality=France
NatAbbrev=FR

//Driver Stats
StartsDry=1.0                      //Average number of drivers passed during start (-4 - 4)
StartsWet=1.0          
StartStalls=0.0                   //% of starts where driver stalled
QualifyingAbility=3.02          //Average qualifying position NOTE: keep GT between 1 -15
RaceAbility=3.00                //Range 0 - 6.2 (0 is best)
Consistency=2.0
RainAbility=4.00                  //Range 0 - 6.2 (0 is best)
Passing=88.0                     //% of times driver completed a successfull pass, not including pit stops or lapped traffic
Crash=1.7                          //% of times driver crashed
Recovery=80                      //% of times driver continued after a crash
CompletedLaps%=99
Script=default.scp
TrackAggression=0.7

These are abbreviated, its a bit of a dark art altering these, but it does work.
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Uncomman

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PostSubject: Re: Various code line explanations?   Tue 30 Oct 2018, 12:36 pm

I did have a look at the .rcd files briefly, some of the numbers are less statistical than they are opinions, you're right it's more like alchemy than engineering.
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philrob

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PostSubject: Re: Various code line explanations?   Tue 30 Oct 2018, 3:36 pm

There was a huge amount of work that went into tuning the rcd files over the years.

vondutch51 released a number of text files and tutorials mostly for GTR2 but still applicable.

GTR2 Reborn v1.0 by Barry mod is also worth finding and reading, lots to take in.
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0fflabeluse



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Anmeldedatum : 2015-01-08

PostSubject: Re: Various code line explanations?   Tue 30 Oct 2018, 10:59 pm

Dunno exactly what its like in GTR2 & GTL, in F1C, the cars became unrealistic fast when the driver files were missing... Smile
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Uncomman

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PostSubject: Re: Various code line explanations?   Wed 31 Oct 2018, 8:30 am

I did a little experiment using the Porsche 906 and various drivers, sometimes using .rcd's and sometimes not. Here are the times:



The fastest three used the correct name (in the .rcd file it is the one in the top left hand corner) and the differences between Andretti and Stewart can be ascribed to random differences on a given lap; I don't think a line can be drawn between these two in reality. Hill being slightly slower also sort of makes sense - he was seldom the fastest but he was consistent. These were consistent differences between these three on many tracks.

The others all either employed unknown drivers or names not recognised by the sim (not found in .rcd files) with the excption of one: Hans Joachim Stuck (the correct .rcd name was used). Clearly the person creating his .rcd either does not know or does not like Stuck, one of the best drivers of sports and touring cars the world has seen.

Here is my problem with these .rcd from an information perspective: There is no way they can be objective, they are always someone's opinion, even the weighting of the history must be done in an algorithm which will have its own biases. One also cannot separate a drivers' history from the cars they drove.

But we can arrive at the following conclusions:

1. If a driver in the .car file is not recognised by the sim (there isn't an .rcd for it) the performance is randomised within an 'average' level of performance. The cars don't go faster, they perform at a mediocre level (these are known in science as 'controls')

2. The drivers who do have .rcd's may have inherent built-in prejudices that will affect their performance. The people who created the .rcd files must by definition have worked within an information base with large degrees of uncertainty - There is no such thing as a human without cognitive biases,

In my view, using the .rcd's is an approximation that may be misleading and may also involve a lot of effort (making sure the names are identical to those in the .rcd files) for little return.


Last edited by Uncomman on Wed 31 Oct 2018, 8:46 am; edited 1 time in total
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Uncomman

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PostSubject: Re: Various code line explanations?   Wed 31 Oct 2018, 8:45 am

While we are on the subject of drivers, I have noticed that often the drivers are defined in this format in the .CAR files:

Driver1="Rolf Stommelen"
Driver2="Jochen Neerpach"

and sometimes there will be a

Driver="Rolf Stommelen"

above that.

But the game ignores the Driver2 setting. If the car pits for fuel, the first driver continues to show as the driver, so what is the purpose of Driver2?

For endurance racing I have now taken to placing the two drivers' names separated by a / in the Driver line:

Driver="Stommelen / Neerpasch" which means the .rcd will not be used but at least both drivers are shown.
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fatguts

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PostSubject: Racing Game   Wed 31 Oct 2018, 9:04 am

Uncomman I think you are getting a bit carried away you are forgetting this was released as a racing game now costing £5 on steam and was not released as a calibrated racing simulator if it was Lewis Hammilton would be using it at Mercedes.

Don't get me wrong I love the game the best way to set the cars up is to drive them on track forget the facts and figures lots of cars have the same .HDC file but altered slightly just look at the toe in and toe out settings they are the same by default on every car. In real life every make of car is different. So its all random even the track length may not be accurate so lap times mean nothing
A lot of the tyres are rubbish and never behave as a tyre would in real life and they make the cars undrivable they wont even go round a simple corner.

I don't mean to piss on your bonfire as they say but take it as it is its a game but a good one enjoyed by many including me.
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Uncomman

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PostSubject: Re: Various code line explanations?   Wed 31 Oct 2018, 9:12 am

Oh I agree completely.

I think the point I am trying to make is the same one you are; none of the variables can be emulated perfectly; but we should recognise the limitations of the sim and understand it's imperfections.

I first came across relative simulations in Grand Prix 2, and I think GTL is outstanding at what it does; the combination of elements makes for an outstanding package.
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fatguts

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PostSubject: Various code line explanations?   Wed 31 Oct 2018, 9:31 am

thumbup thumbup Hurry up with that Porsche lol
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Uncomman

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PostSubject: Re: Various code line explanations?   Wed 31 Oct 2018, 9:33 am

I'm dancing as fast as I can. The spotlights will take me a LONG time, I am only just starting on graphics elements.

You will need patience Smile
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0fflabeluse



Anzahl der Beiträge : 120
Anmeldedatum : 2015-01-08

PostSubject: Re: Various code line explanations?   Wed 31 Oct 2018, 4:03 pm

Uncomman wrote:
While we are on the subject of drivers, I have noticed that often the drivers are defined in this format in the .CAR files:

Driver1="Rolf Stommelen"
Driver2="Jochen Neerpach"

and sometimes there will be a

Driver="Rolf Stommelen"

above that.

But the game ignores the Driver2 setting. If the car pits for fuel, the first driver continues to show as the driver, so what is the purpose of Driver2?

For endurance racing I have now taken to placing the two drivers' names separated by a / in the Driver line:

Driver="Stommelen / Neerpasch" which means the .rcd will not be used but at least both drivers are shown.

Indeed, the AI cars do not change drivers, they are steadfast and complete a complete 24h without a peeing break. Driver2 is the guy takes command of the driver's car when the player decides to pause and let the AI drive. One little complaint I have about the game, as it does take a bit away from the immersion. GTR2 thingy, that is.
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0fflabeluse



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PostSubject: Re: Various code line explanations?   Wed 31 Oct 2018, 4:09 pm

fatguts wrote:
Uncomman I think you are getting a bit carried away you are forgetting this was released as a racing game now costing £5 on steam and was not released as a calibrated racing simulator if it was Lewis Hammilton would be using it at Mercedes.

Don't get me wrong I love the game the best way to set the cars up is to drive them on track forget the facts and figures lots of cars have the same .HDC file but altered slightly just look at the toe in and toe out settings they are the same by default on every car. In real life every make of car is different. So its all random even the track length may not be accurate so lap times mean nothing
A lot of the tyres are rubbish and never behave as a tyre would in real life and they make the cars undrivable they wont even go round a simple corner.

I don't mean to piss on your bonfire as they say but take it as it is its a game but a good one enjoyed by many including me.

Are you talking about stock game content or mods?
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Uncomman

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PostSubject: Re: Various code line explanations?   Wed 31 Oct 2018, 4:19 pm

Interestingly enough, fatguts,several racing drivers, and I know Jacques Villeneuve did at one track (can't remember which), used GP2 to learn tracks to very good effect, and GP2 was nowhere near as detailed and accurate as GTL.

I have tried many games and deleted them because of the unrealistic handling and performance, notably GRID, Need for Speed, and a bunch of others that to me are more like arcade games.

GP2 and GP4 were the only simulations around until the advent of Live for Speed, which I still use, immensely complex and accurate car physics but too little variation in the cars and tracks, and of course GTL and GTR2 and some others that I have never tried.

These games emulate the reality to an extent that is worthy of the term 'simulation', especially in comparison with the aforementioned arcade games
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0fflabeluse



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PostSubject: Re: Various code line explanations?   Wed 31 Oct 2018, 5:01 pm

I read somewhere, the first generation of simulators used by F1-teams to develop and test their cars were based on the rF engine - the same one GTL and GTR2 are based on. Of course seriously bored up and far more complex than what we are dealing with.

And from what I heared, that's the stuff ISI really earn their money
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jghinkle



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Anmeldedatum : 2010-09-04

PostSubject: Re: Various code line explanations?   Thu 01 Nov 2018, 12:22 am

Uncomman wrote:
Thanks jghinkle that makes sense. Not a significant amount of utility.

So other than creating individual .hdc's. there is no other way to make individual cars in a field faster or slower?

FWIW,  I always customize my own installation of mods,  even from within our own team (BLT).  It's a lot of work to create individual HDC's within a mod,  but worth every bit of time doing so.  When you get it right,  a race against the AI is every bit as rewarding as against human opponents such as in iRacing or even real life.

As an example,  I will give a car that comes prepped from Brumos slightly better performance in power, grip, braking, etc than a backyard prepped Porsche from say, Charlie Kemp.  John Greenwood's Corvettes get better numbers than Lynn Smith's. And so on.  As a side benefit,  the AI will always qualify with the "better" cars consistently at the front and the field fillers at the rear,  and they will race and spread out naturally as they did in real life.  You don't have to worry about the artificial bunching or randomness of a slow car qualifying on the pole to cause mayhem in a race that you get when you rely on the talent files to do so. Plus, it's a great challenge to jump into a slower "privateer" car and try to run with the big boys at the front of the field.
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Uncomman

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PostSubject: Re: Various code line explanations?   Thu 01 Nov 2018, 4:36 am

jghinkle wrote:


FWIW,  I always customize my own installation of mods,  even from within our own team (BLT).  It's a lot of work to create individual HDC's within a mod,  but worth every bit of time doing so.  When you get it right,  a race against the AI is every bit as rewarding as against human opponents such as in iRacing or even real life.


Wow, you are part of BLT? (I assume this means Brickyard Legends) Such amazing work, I have many mods from you guys, great quality and - a particular preference of mine - always authentic, skins that you can lookup, the cars were real. Much obliged for your efforts.

jghinkle wrote:


As an example,  I will give a car that comes prepped from Brumos slightly better performance in power, grip, braking, etc than a backyard prepped Porsche from say, Charlie Kemp.  John Greenwood's Corvettes get better numbers than Lynn Smith's. And so on.  As a side benefit,  the AI will always qualify with the "better" cars consistently at the front and the field fillers at the rear,  and they will race and spread out naturally as they did in real life.  You don't have to worry about the artificial bunching or randomness of a slow car qualifying on the pole to cause mayhem in a race that you get when you rely on the talent files to do so.  Plus,  it's a great challenge to jump into a slower "privateer" car and try to run with the big boys at the front of the field.


Yeah I'm pretty much doing the same thing, setting up Championships and doing my best, through research and creating and adjusting .hdc's, to create fields that simulate the real world. And I like nothing better than to take on the 'big boys' in an underdog car. As a kid, I used to have a big collection of 1/43 and 1/32 scale cars, even raced slot cars and built plenty of kit models. I'm still playing with model cars 50 years later. I guess in some ways I have never grown up. Smile
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jghinkle



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PostSubject: Re: Various code line explanations?   Fri 02 Nov 2018, 9:33 pm

Uncomman wrote:
I guess in some ways I have never grown up. Smile

None of us have. That's what makes this hobby so fun. Smile
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hmmguy

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PostSubject: Re: Various code line explanations?   Fri 02 Nov 2018, 10:01 pm

Uncomman wrote:
jghinkle wrote:


FWIW,  I always customize my own installation of mods,  even from within our own team (BLT).  It's a lot of work to create individual HDC's within a mod,  but worth every bit of time doing so.  When you get it right,  a race against the AI is every bit as rewarding as against human opponents such as in iRacing or even real life.


Wow, you are part of BLT? (I assume this means Brickyard Legends) Such amazing work, I have many mods from you guys, great quality and - a particular preference of mine - always authentic, skins that you can lookup, the cars were real. Much obliged for your efforts.

jghinkle wrote:


As an example,  I will give a car that comes prepped from Brumos slightly better performance in power, grip, braking, etc than a backyard prepped Porsche from say, Charlie Kemp.  John Greenwood's Corvettes get better numbers than Lynn Smith's. And so on.  As a side benefit,  the AI will always qualify with the "better" cars consistently at the front and the field fillers at the rear,  and they will race and spread out naturally as they did in real life.  You don't have to worry about the artificial bunching or randomness of a slow car qualifying on the pole to cause mayhem in a race that you get when you rely on the talent files to do so.  Plus,  it's a great challenge to jump into a slower "privateer" car and try to run with the big boys at the front of the field.


Yeah I'm pretty much doing the same thing, setting up Championships and doing my best, through research and creating and adjusting .hdc's, to create fields that simulate the real world. And I like nothing better than to take on the 'big boys' in an underdog car. As a kid, I used to have a big collection of 1/43 and 1/32 scale cars, even raced slot cars and built plenty of kit models. I'm still playing with model cars 50 years later. I guess in some ways I have never grown up. Smile

I didn't see this mentioned regarding getting the ai to perform appropriately but a great little line in all tyr files is terrific for getting the ai to run proper times...

AIGripMult=1.010

Raising/lowering this can make a great impact if the ai is too fast or too slow. I use it constantly to get the ai to run spot on qualifying times for the Absolute Le Mans Part 2 mod. The only thing painful is that you must close the game outright and then restart to check the changes.
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Uncomman

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PostSubject: Re: Various code line explanations?   Sat 03 Nov 2018, 4:32 am

hmmguy wrote:


I didn't see this mentioned regarding getting the ai to perform appropriately but a great little line in all tyr files is terrific for getting the ai to run proper times...

AIGripMult=1.010

Raising/lowering this can make a great impact if the ai is too fast or too slow. I use it constantly to get the ai to run spot on qualifying times for the Absolute Le Mans Part 2 mod. The only thing painful is that you must close the game outright and then restart to check the changes.

Wow that's a useful nugget right there, thanks hmmguy!

I've been closing the game outright and then restarting for all changes, I assumed that the game reloads the .hdc files for example but now that I think about it, the .hdc's are only loaded in a batch programme once the track and cars are selected (it cannot know until then which ones are participating), so I could move back to the main menu, make the changes (running in windowed mode) in Notepad ++ and then return to the chosen race. Did not really think about it before - I suppose the .tyr files all load irrespective of race? And that would then affect all cars using that tyre, which may not be ideal if it's a generic tyre, therefore necessitating the creation of a unique .tyr file for that .hdc.
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hmmguy

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PostSubject: Re: Various code line explanations?   Sat 03 Nov 2018, 9:06 pm

Yes, if the tyr file is shared amongst all the cars then this doesn't work. Its strictly for 1 car type. What can be done easily if its a generic tyr file is to make duplicates with a name change and added to the car's folders. Yes it can still work if left loose in the Teams folder but its much more tidy to add them to each individual car folder. That way all you are affecting is the one specific car. So as an example, if the cars are all running well aside from 1 or 2 or whatever amount are running too fast/too slow, this can be used to alter them without affecting the others. That said, GTR2 has an odd trait whereby altering 1 car to become faster/slower may result in 5 other cars suddenly running faster/slower than they had been...almost like they're protesting or jealous lol

The eng, hdc, grb and aud files can be altered with the game running as long as you're not at a track. It will cause a ctd if done at the track when you return to the game. The .car files and tyr need to have the game closed outright for the changes to work.

There is another line in the hdc file that can also make a big difference to how the ai drive. Its this line...

AIMinPassesPerTick=

It has a maximum of 15 but it uses more cpu the higher you go. That said, this is a 12yr old game now so the chances of it having a big impact if using original cars or lower poly cars is moot. It will however still make an impact if its the newer high poly cars even on newer PCs.
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Uncomman

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PostSubject: Re: Various code line explanations?   Sun 04 Nov 2018, 4:11 am

Excellent, that will save me some time! Thanks hmmguy, very helpful.

You said:

"AIMinPassesPerTick=

It has a maximum of 15 but it uses more cpu the higher you go. That said, this is a 12yr old game now so the chances of it having a big impact if using original cars or lower poly cars is moot. It will however still make an impact if its the newer high poly cars even on newer PCs. "

What does it do, specifically? I notice, in watching the AI drive while testing fields and relative performance of cars, that the AI makes many driving errors. having to come off the throttle unnecessarily quite often, and taking lines that are not ideal. This of course makes it a little easier for me, but if it's too easy I get bored.

Also, I am running an AMD graphics card, is it purely CPU that it places demands on?

I have noticed that the GTL AI also seems to go faster when I have set a time faster than it, could be misperception but often in practice/qualifying I set a quick one and think it's all over and I have pole and suddenly there are 2 or 3 cars going faster than they did before.
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hmmguy

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PostSubject: Re: Various code line explanations?   Sun 04 Nov 2018, 9:58 pm

as I understand it, the cpu is what takes the hit only. It seems the cpu monitors the ai closer though its not as though it will overcome a poorly made aiw file. My experience has been that the line set at 2 when changed to 15 sometimes makes an improvement of nearly 2 seconds per lap. That said, its entirely track dependent as well as the aiw file but it generally has a positive effect on lap times for sure.
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GeeDee
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PostSubject: Re: Various code line explanations?   Mon 05 Nov 2018, 8:37 pm

Something which affects newer tracks is that the AI hasn't been tested as well as when my old friend GreyBrad used to do it. He told me he did most of the tracks and he would try every mod on it just for a long period just to get it as good as possible.

Unfortunately, there are so many many more mods now that it would take him maybe 7 to 10 times at least extra work which would relate to many months testing for just one track.

The problem from what I gathered from him is that different size engined cars have differing braking points and lines for corners, making it difficult to sort out and it's a dark art some say and you have to be a really good driver to be able to get AI to behave in a reasonable manne.

Sadly, Andy (GreyBrad) retired from modding a handful of years ago so that he could look after his wife who has declining health.
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0fflabeluse



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PostSubject: Re: Various code line explanations?   Mon 05 Nov 2018, 9:43 pm

Besides other silly things, the AI has an annoying tendency to come almost to a full stop when something unexpectedly comes in the way of their trajectory, be it human driver or AI, something that already bugged me out often enough with stock content, and addons don't neccessarily improve that. The AI seems to be unable to handle certain situations adequately. Agreed, human drivers can anticipate the behaviour if that next to you is 1 1/2 tons of Detroit iron or 600 kg British plastic, but how should the AI know?
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