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 Porsche 910

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Uncomman

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Anzahl der Beiträge : 196
Anmeldedatum : 2018-08-28
Alter : 63
Ort : Up the road from Kyalami

PostSubject: Porsche 910   Sun 28 Oct 2018, 1:49 pm

Is this where new projects/WIP go? If not, please move, Admin.

I have just converted this Porsche 910 from GTR2 (thanks for the GTR2 version, Offlabeluse!)

It's the 910 from 1967/8/9 at Le Mans. Here is a comparative picture from the real world, and the mod at Bugatti:





BUT there are some problems, which I will detail in further posts on this thread.
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Uncomman

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Anmeldedatum : 2018-08-28
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Ort : Up the road from Kyalami

PostSubject: Re: Porsche 910   Sun 28 Oct 2018, 1:50 pm

Here is a comparative from the rear:



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Uncomman

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PostSubject: Re: Porsche 910   Sun 28 Oct 2018, 1:51 pm

...and another from the front:



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Uncomman

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PostSubject: Re: Porsche 910   Sun 28 Oct 2018, 1:53 pm

And here with other cars:




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WHIPCRACKER

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PostSubject: Re: Porsche 910   Sun 28 Oct 2018, 2:06 pm

Are you trying to round out some of the low-polyness of the model using your graphical knowledge.

Just curious---not criticizing the model as any new addition to the fleet is more than welcome.











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Uncomman

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Ort : Up the road from Kyalami

PostSubject: Re: Porsche 910   Sun 28 Oct 2018, 2:09 pm

Firstly let me make it clear that I do not offer critique for critique's sake, but in the spirit of Shigeo Shingo, the creator of lean production (Just In Time), who said:

"Dissatisfaction is the mother of improvement"

I am dissatisfied with the following in this mod, some of which I have already corrected:

1. When I first got it, the car looked like it was on stilts like one of those freakish creations in the USA that race over old cars. I dropped the body and am still fiddling but for now it looks okay.
2. The engine was completely wrong, delivering peak power at around 4000 rpm like a diesel truck. The engine is now accurate.
3. The body is too wide; the track both front and rear is correct but the body overlaps too much and the detail is missing on the rear section and other areas.
4. The car oversteers violently, to the point where even the AI cannot drive a complete lap without almost losing it and having to back off the throttle or catch a fishtail slide. The result is that I cannot complete a lap at a time that reflects the car's capability. At the moment, it is about 6 seconds off the 906 at Le Mans; in reality it was 10 seconds faster than the 906s, so I need to find 16 seconds.
5. The paintwork is too damn white. (Yeah I know that's ironic from a white guy from South Africa) The whiteness inside the wheel wells and in general needs to be dirtied, and the blue needs to be darker.

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Uncomman

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PostSubject: Re: Porsche 910   Sun 28 Oct 2018, 2:13 pm

WHIPCRACKER wrote:
Are you trying to round out some of the low-polyness of the model using your graphical knowledge.

Just curious---not criticizing the model as any new addition to the fleet is more than welcome.


Hey WHIPCRACKER, I don't know enough about graphics in this context to do the fix (I will in time) but I thought it would be nice to get advice from all the experts so that the mod could be improve. It is definitely a valuable addition. I can do all the mechanical stuff but i have very limited understanding of the graphics at this point in time. It will not be long, however.

Oh and we have no idea who the original modder was (may have been part of the Absolute Le Mans mod?) so we cannot even give credit or ask permission.


Last edited by Uncomman on Sun 28 Oct 2018, 2:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
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WHIPCRACKER

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PostSubject: Re: Porsche 910   Sun 28 Oct 2018, 2:18 pm

As a means to help----try using the Porsche 906----Inertia=(760.0,845.0,170.0) as a baseline---it would be fairly close and would give a more controllable drive.

Mass=670 should be about right---varied weights on the sites from 650 with driver to 725 kg---will have to determine which is correct.


Last edited by WHIPCRACKER on Sun 28 Oct 2018, 2:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Uncomman

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Ort : Up the road from Kyalami

PostSubject: Re: Porsche 910   Sun 28 Oct 2018, 2:21 pm

WHIPCRACKER wrote:
As a means to help----try using the Porsche 906----Inertia=(760.0,845.0,170.0) as a baseline---it would be fairly close and would give a more controllable drive.

I did think of that, it's a good idea but I just want to check if a number of other variables are similar enough.

BTW, where does the Inertia code line derive it's inputs from?
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Zexer



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PostSubject: Re: Porsche 910   Sun 28 Oct 2018, 2:25 pm

It's a model made 20 years ago originally part of the CSGT mod (the first one for GPL, not the re-release for rF1 that had less models and only featured half the grid of the '70 LM race), complaining about lack of graphical fidelity is like complaining because you ate a rotten apple and then had to go to the doctor because it made you sick.

There isn't much advice to be given. Either remodel it from scratch or just change the physics and repaint the liveries with a new shadow layer or a darker tone of paint.
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WHIPCRACKER

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PostSubject: Re: Porsche 910   Sun 28 Oct 2018, 2:29 pm

AAAAH!!! good question but a difficult answer in a way. I use Kangaloosh carFactory but it won't work on Windows 10 and I have stopped Windows 7 from updating for over 2 years now as otherwise one of the updates stops it from working too.

It calibrates the relation between engine position and weight etc etcalso cg height etc.
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Uncomman

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Ort : Up the road from Kyalami

PostSubject: Re: Porsche 910   Sun 28 Oct 2018, 2:31 pm

Zexer wrote:
It's a model made 20 years ago originally part of the CSGT mod (the first one for GPL, not the re-release for rF1 that had less models and only featured half the grid of the '70 LM race), complaining about lack of graphical fidelity is like complaining because you ate a rotten apple and then had to go to the doctor because it made you sick.

I am not 'complaining', I am making observations with an intention to make improvements; there is a clinical difference in the attitude. It's pretty obvious that changes will have to be made if it is to be improved; the reason why I need 'advice' is because I don't understand many of the variables. So I need people who have the knowledge to either tell me how to do it or offer to help.

What specifically doesn't help is stating the obvious with sarcasm...
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Uncomman

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Ort : Up the road from Kyalami

PostSubject: Re: Porsche 910   Sun 28 Oct 2018, 2:34 pm

WHIPCRACKER wrote:
AAAAH!!! good question but a difficult answer in a way.  I use Kangaloosh carFactory but it won't work on Windows 10 and I have stopped Windows 7 from updating for over 2 years now as otherwise one of the updates stops it from working too.

It calibrates the relation between engine position and weight etc etcalso cg height etc.

I'm still on Win 7, have refused to upgrade to what I have considered to be overengineered and faddish changes. So maybe I can use Kangaloosh carFactory?
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Zexer



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PostSubject: Re: Porsche 910   Sun 28 Oct 2018, 2:37 pm

It's not sarcasm, it's the truth. Cynical perhaps, but the truth nonetheless. The model is simply too old to be bothered with in regards to substancial updates to its 3D, it's the modding version of putting 'lipstick on a pig'.

By the time you learn 3D modeling and are done updating it, you might aswell start from scratch and make a new one. This one isn't worth the time and effort.
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WHIPCRACKER

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PostSubject: Re: Porsche 910   Sun 28 Oct 2018, 2:40 pm

Sorry---link not safe

TRy it to see if it works for you---


Last edited by WHIPCRACKER on Sun 28 Oct 2018, 6:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Uncomman

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PostSubject: Re: Porsche 910   Sun 28 Oct 2018, 2:43 pm

Cool! Thanks a lot. Obviously the integrity of the outputs depends very much on whether the inputs are accurate but I'm sure I will learn something new, which is always a good thing.
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WHIPCRACKER

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PostSubject: Re: Porsche 910   Sun 28 Oct 2018, 2:52 pm

Even as a learning exercise---no matter whether it's worthy to release----this benefits the community simply because someone is learning more about modding. Therefore future benefits are garunteed.

Uncomman---if you send me the GTR2 version I can come up with the physics for it.
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Uncomman

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PostSubject: Re: Porsche 910   Sun 28 Oct 2018, 2:59 pm

Will do, just offline on my phone right now, uninstalling all the apps that link put in my desktop. It may have been me, busy with a number of things so may have not seen something but I am generally wary and don't allow additional apps to be installed
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WHIPCRACKER

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PostSubject: Re: Porsche 910   Sun 28 Oct 2018, 3:02 pm

Sorry---didn't try downloading----it was a link that was recommended about a year ago,

By the way---already have the Porsche 910 in Absolute Lemans so don't worry about sending it----the physics seem really far away from reality.
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Uncomman

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PostSubject: Re: Porsche 910   Sun 28 Oct 2018, 4:31 pm

Ah okay is it the same one?

I really want this one to complete my grid for Le Mans 1967, so I am willing to invest the time, even if I only get understanding of modding from it, but if there is an added bonus of making use of it and making it available to the community, it seems worthwhile.

I also have the GT40 mk1, still have to do the convert, to complete the Le Mans 64 field. Will do that this week.

BTW I had a close look at that file I downloaded, not safe, perhaps remove the link to protect others? I had to remove about 6 Adware Apps manually (don't use antivirus, have not done so for a decade, slows down the computer too much and gives too many false positives.)
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WHIPCRACKER

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PostSubject: Re: Porsche 910   Sun 28 Oct 2018, 4:42 pm

OK---did a rough physics for the 910

Mass=675.0 // all mass except fuel
Inertia=(527.86,709.06,181.27)

Body Aero=2.2

CG=2.1

Brake torque fr=1700
Brake torque rear=1500

Tire front
DryLatLong=(1.403, 1.430)
Tire rear
DryLatLong=(1.457, 1.482)
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Uncomman

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PostSubject: Re: Porsche 910   Sun 28 Oct 2018, 4:48 pm

Thanks, much appreciated, will try that out asap!

Of course, I do want to know what each line means and where it sources its information from when you have time please?
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0fflabeluse



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PostSubject: Re: Porsche 910   Sun 28 Oct 2018, 5:42 pm

Zexer wrote:
It's a model made 20 years ago originally part of the CSGT mod (the first one for GPL, not the re-release for rF1 that had less models and only featured half the grid of the '70 LM race), complaining about lack of graphical fidelity is like complaining because you ate a rotten apple and then had to go to the doctor because it made you sick.

There isn't much advice to be given. Either remodel it from scratch or just change the physics and repaint the liveries with a new shadow layer or a darker tone of paint.

Ah, there it is from, I had wrongly assumed its already the rF1 version... Rolling Eyes
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Uncomman

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PostSubject: Re: Porsche 910   Mon 29 Oct 2018, 7:11 am

Thanks WHIPCRACKER that did the trick! The 910's now run about 30 secs off the leader at Le Mans and about 6 secs faster than the 906's. It still oversteers a little but I can fix that with the default suspension settings.

Now I need to list the code lines you added to get better understanding. I can't ask you every time, I need to know WHAT each of these do and WHY they work:

1. Mass=675.0 // all mass except fuel - This I understand, no problem

2. Inertia=(527.86,709.06,181.27) - not clear on the inputs or what this setting does; I understand inertia (I'm a science geek) but not in this context and not in terms of the variables

3. Body Aero=2.2 - I assumed this meant BodyDragBase=(0.220). I understand this too but often the aerodynamic coefficient used is completely unrealistic; this car had a Cd of .32 or .34 depending on the source but I also recognise that the SIM is not 100% accurate and sometimes adjustments must be made to get the car to perform realistically.

4. CG=2.1 - I assumed you meant CGHeight=0.210 - Not sure what this means, does it refer to the distance between the ground and the top of the body?

5. Brake torque fr=1700
Brake torque rear=1500

I know what this means but where do the numbers come from?

6. Tire front
DryLatLong=(1.403, 1.430)
Tire rear
DryLatLong=(1.457, 1.482)

I haven't the foggiest what this means

Unless I get an understanding of these variables and how to work with them, I am always going to be asking others for help, so please explain, that way I bug you less!

Thanks!
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WHIPCRACKER

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PostSubject: Re: Porsche 910   Mon 29 Oct 2018, 1:42 pm

1. Mass=675.0 ---just remember that it's calculated with 75kg driver

Body Aero=2.2---this is not real world accurate but it is in relation to the other cars. As an example--put in the real world CD numbers then hit the Lemans straight---top speed will never be achieved.

6. Tire front
DryLatLong=(1.403, 1.430) first number--cornering grip--second--brake or acceleration grip
Tire rear
DryLatLong=(1.457, 1.482)

You need to compare these values to other car tires in the mod you are running--also the rolling resistance in the .tyr file which is normally way too high---also these numbers are related to the width in the .tyr file so an mg midget tires would be a lot lower grip numbers.

To achieve accurate Lemans topspeeds the combination of gearing, bodydrag and tire rolling resistance must work together. I use rolling resistance between 1300 and 1700 depending on the size of the tire and the era of the car---I'm referring to 1950s and 1960s----later car tires are grippier therefore higher rolling resistance too.

I can't stress enough that each car be done in the same manner as they must be real world competitive with each other.

I have a huge LM55 up to 1965 that each car physics are accurate as possible and I have created many cars that use a base car like the 250TR ferrari to do similar but unobtainables like the 315S, 335S, 412S, 625LM, 860Monsa etc. and the same for the Maseratis 150S,200S,259S, 350S---lol---all accurate physics and driving character.

There is a lot to learn in all aspects of modding and hopefully others will chime in to help explain how things work. It's taken a long time for me to learn what I know and a lot of it is trial and error learning---experience---



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