Can-Am Revelations 2.0 w.i.p.

Hey folks, I have a question about what or which you think is better with regard to a crossroads of sorts...hehe I want to lead you guys off on a trail jokingly but I'll resist  

Seriously though, I am re-doing the Can-Am Revelations mod regarding physics and sounds and the question is, which is the better way to go here...with the Chaparral 2A, I have read from here  http://www.thechaparralfiles.com/wiki_alternative.php  that the 2A actually only had a 1spd gearbox  I tried it as a 1 spd and it's ridiculously slow out of turns obviously  and big whoop that given enough room (on the Hunaudieres) will reach 205mph  The 2C in the article says it was fitted with a 2spd automatic amongst other changes when becoming the C. I tried it as a 2spd and it still sucks abeit not quite as bad  I originally had this car as a 4spd but upon researching it, here I am now wondering this...should I go with reasonably correct with the 2spd for both or say the heck with it and make them 4spds? Orrrrr...hmm...what about going with the 3spd that followed in the Chaparral 2D (big block version)?

 

The crazy fast Chaparrals were for the most part 2-speeds, I'm not quoting this from research , but I'm old enough to have seen these things run...., it was supposed to be more "efficient", but is was actually the cars weak spot. Thing is, 2-speeds don't work that well in these sims, so use the 3-4 speeds or we can all help out on trying to make an .eng file for these cars that would work for a 2-speed box.......

By the way, I'm going through some old stuff in prep for a move, and I popped in an old movie called THE RACERS, and it's a trip to see some of the great road circuits from the 55' season, truly epic shots of some of the great road courses and the masters, but there is a lot of fluff in the film.........

Hey joeschmoe, thanks for commenting. I wish I had been 5 years older than I am as I would have gotten to see them run at Mosport. My parents weren't racing fans so we never went. I turned 16 in '78 and of course they were long over by then. I mean as the Can-Am series. I know the cars still raced wherever after that but... Anyway, I'm leaning towards maybe leaving the A car as a 2spd and making the C car a 3spd given the next gen D car having it.

As an aside, the only car I have found data on to say it had a 5spd in the mod is the M6B 429er car. Do you or anyone else reading this know any specifics supporting any of the other cars having 5spds? For as absolutely insanely awesome as these cars were, there is surprisingly not very much data available on them all. I'm not looking for any number crunching by any means, I just mean weights/engine+hp/gears. Top speed helps too if available. I'm trying to make it real enough but still able to be driven by most. I understand the point of the game being a sim and all but I don't have the $40k+ to have such a wheel/pedals/seat full motion system that will generate the seat of the pants feeling in order to really be able to drive cars like these hard with their true grip levels. My poor G27 just doesn't cut it  So what I'm doing is using the real weights and hp values as best as I can find and using much better gripping tires along with a bunch of other tweaks and changes but not so much so that it's damn near on rails either   It's still plenty easy to spin off if you're not paying close enough attention  So far I have only found 2 cars that are in the mod with stated top speeds and they are the Porsche 917 10-002 at 221mph and the 917 30 at race tune (1100hp) hit 240mph. From there I'm just guesstimating based on that. For instance, the Autocoast ti I read had 520hp so that's what I gave it. Based on the 917 10-002 having had 620hp again as read, I have the Autocoast hitting 215mph and the monstrous McLaren M20 with 787hp hitting 230. I'm reasoning the fact that once we start talking these speeds, it would probably take another 300+hp to go 10mph faster. For the cars I can't find anything on, I'm again guesstimating or using artistic licence   and giving them something appropriately competitive for the year. Something else I've factored in is the top speed capabilities are being done with the radiator opening closed at 1 for minimum drag. I've also got a fellow helping me make sure the engines are overheating after a lap or so when driven hard when set like that. Currently, a number of them barely even flinched while screaming along at redline  I'm still working on that part. I have a fellow looking in to it for me to try to fix them to run decently consistently correct oil temps. Now if only they had proper functioning cockpits. Not graphically accurate necessarily, just working and there  Personally, I usually use the chase view zoomed out a touch and as such, it doesn't make a lot to any difference the way they are now but I image this mod could be epic if it got a bunch more 3d love poured in to it  I'll say one thing for using the chase view though, I think I felt heat coming from the screen when the Chaparral 2J backfired   The flames must have shot out about 5ft!    

Holy bloody book I just wrote! oops


  

hmm...70 views and only 1 comment. I would have thought Can-Am might have sparked more interest  Would a taste test sample of what I've been up to with the cars help as they now have the proper hp and weights along with appropriate top speeds they ran as best as I can determine through edjumukaded guessing  As example, the 917 30 has 1100hp and hits 240mph. Therefore the BRM P159 with 760hp can only hit around 228-229mph. As I haven't been able to find any data on the BRM P159 regarding top speed, this seems like the only way to make this work. Further to me concluding the 228+mph is due to the data existing for the top speed of the 917 10-002 car of 221mph while having 620hp. It further follows then that the Chaparral 2A with 450hp hits the aero wall at around 205mph. To anyone reading this, does this sound about right? I realize there are other variables in play but I'm speaking only of top speed when run on the Mulsanne straight. Also, the speeds are attained with the radiator closed off for lowest drag. The cars will over heat if run hard beyond 2 laps when set up like this. I figured I'd make them good for a b*lls out  hot lap or qualifying lap otherwise, you need the rad setting to be right in your set-up or you'll over-heat

This sampling is not the finished version as the temperature tuning for the engine isn't quite completed yet but otherwise the car's physics are probably 95% done for it. This is the aforementioned BRM P154 sporting it's 465ci 760hp ground pounding thunderous engine. I altered the rpm thresholds of an existing sound .aud file so as to give the car the lowest rumble I've heard in GTR2 so far. If you have a sub or are using earphones, you're in for a treat. As I have mentioned before, I make no claim to the sound file as without it, I couldn't have done sh*t. It was originally used for a CCGT mod as well as for the SLR McLaren car from another previously publically released mod...BenMk's Street Cars maybe?? Please forgive me but I'm not exactly sure who was the modder in either case. All I have done is alter the .aud file for this. 

I'd appreciate you folks giving this car a whirl and see if I'm going in the right direction with these cars. Feedback is most welcome. If you don't already happen to have the Can-Am Revelations mod installed, the car will show up in your NGT's 2004 in game.

http://www.mediafire.com/download/m539770qfi6l5v0/Can-Am_Sampler.rar

Just tried this at Riverside and it is great! It's so much fun to blast around at speed on the edge of losing grip, very nice, it's not mind numbingly sticky. Some ran 512ci motors, so the sound update is much appreciated and fitting. So yeah, looks like the right direction! Thank You for your efforts!!!

Thanks for trying it out mate! Glad you liked.

You mentioned some of these running 512ci engines...do you know where I might find some
decent literature aside from basic google searches? Confined to google only is leaving many
holes in the critical details such as engines/hp and curb weights. So far the largest engine I've
found referenced has been the Chaparral M20 at 510ci and sported 787hp. Again, 787hp is
well and fine but no mention of the lb/ft of this big lump so I have only artistic licence to work
with. In this case, I considered the displacement and gave it 740lb/ft at 4400rpm. Of all the
cars NOT from Germany, the Shadow DN4 has the highest hp at 800 from a 496ci lump of
Bowtie. It's a shame Ford and Chrysler didn't want to play seriously in the Can-Am the way
Chevy/GM did. Can you imagine if the Mopar guys set to adapting their 426 Hemi to the task 

Btw, there was a little hole in the inside sounds of the .aud file. Here's a little patch for it

http://www.mediafire.com/download/6hgs5dcax4x8x4s/brmp154_inside_sound_fix.rar

I just remember the displacement because at the time I thought is was huge, I'm sure it was 1971,  Rodriguez I think(?????), but then the seventies happened and well, you know.....memory, etc. As you can see from period photos, many weren't exactly OCD about keeping records, so there is sadly far too little documentation about most of these machines. Many of these guys kept tuning notes, etc in their heads, and the ones who were actually documenting the stuff have moved on. died, etc, so no one knows where all these docs may be. I'll look around to see if I can find out who ran the 512's, but most of the older people I knew then are dead, or MIA for many years. I can understand how frustrating it may be for a project like this, but there just isn't the hard info out there......And yeah, a long lasting hemi would have been pretty damn impressive to see, and those Ford cammers were good for 750-800hp no sweat...., Realtors' a callin' gotta go!!!!!
Forgot to mention, the sound patch works perfect, Good Job & Thank You!!!

A pic of the test car..........

   Right on joeschmoe!   Thanks for posting these!      

Were you able to catch the slide in the first picture? I've been finding that by keeping the
caster set low at only 2 has helped to make the cars a bit easier to catch without over-correcting.

It was just fine, if you're smooth with it, you can hold a mild oversteer drift for suprisingly long stretches! But as I mentioned, if you get sloppy while sliding over 140 or so it will bite!, right proper......
This thing is HOOT to drive!......

hmmguy,

The original Chaparral (2A,C) did not run in the Can AM series. At the time they ran (64,65) the series was known as the United States Road Racing Championship (USRRC). The 2A/C used a 327 block and a Colotti 4 speed trans. The automatic would come with the 2E. Claimed hp was 450hp with the 327. The 327's were aluminum blocks. The chassis in the 2A/C series was constructed of fiberglass. Top speed of the 2A/C is not mentioned in any of the books I have on the Can Am or Chaparral. I guess recording of it was not that critical.

The 2E was the first Chaparral with the automatic trans and high mounted wing which appeared in the first season of the Can Am in 1966. It also used an all aluminum chassis as the fiberglass chassis was too heavy. The automatic trans allowed the driver to control the wing movement with his left foot. In 66 the Chaparral would continue to run the 327 with carbs. They also introduced the three speed trans axel. It still had to be manually shifted. Shifts were done by lifting from the throttle and the driver easing the stick into the next gear. It was also the first car to move the radiators to the rear of the car. While it was the most advanced car to run the series in 66 it only recorded one win. The only win for the 2E for 66, 67 and 68. In 1967 it morphed into the 2G and they installed the big block 427 with fuel injection making about 570hp. Reliability would become a constant issue for Chaparral.

Thanks very much for this info chrisracer14! I must say though that while I'm not for a moment suggesting you're wrong about the 2A and C running 4 spd transmissions, this is very different than what I had read here  http://www.sportscars.tv/Newfiles/Chaparral2.html  This is a pic of the printed and advertised specifications taken from the same page showing it having a 2spd tranny
Aside from this 1 point, I agree with you 100% about the rest of your post. What I had written earlier in this thread also came from other sites about the 2A and C cars regarding the original 1spd tranny in the 2A being changed to a 2spd for the C car. My gawd can you imagine how good you had to be to always match the revs when using that semi-automatic!?!

hmmguy,

I stand corrected. Reading further, Jim Hall's car was fitted with an automatic trans in 64 while the car Roger Penske drove retained the 4 speed Colotti trans. For 1965 both cars were fitted with the two speed automatic and the small block 327.

hmmguy,

I took some time and drove the BRM. Love the sounds! The car feels good. I tested it on the Mosport 1967 track. I have raced and won at Mosport (in the car in my avatar) and there is documentation for the 1970 event there to compare to.

After some familiarization laps and adjustments to suspension, brake bias, tire pressures and ride height it was time for some fast laps. I was able to get down easily into the 1:14's in just a few laps. 1:13 or 12's would be possible. Either the car handles too good or is just a tad too fast. In 1970 Hulme had the pole at 1:17.6 in the M8D and Eatons qualifying time in the BRM P154 was 1:22.8.

Other than that I think your on the right track and I look forward to further improvements.

Thanks so much and right fn on to have a real racer to discuss this with!!!  I'm honoured!

I had a feeling that when it came right down to the actual lap times the real cars were able to run that these would be too fast by comparison. I have a strong suspicion that the .tyr file I'm using is largely responsible for that. I went with such an increased amount of grip for no other reason than to make up for the lack of seat-of-the-pants being able to guide your right foot and also to be able to give the less skilled users a chance to feel the raw power without spinning off who knows where whenever the gas is pushed just a tiny bit too hard. You'll still go spinning off even still but there's a bit more leeway with that happening so fast now. As I think I had already mentioned, the first thing I did with each car once the correct hp and weights were established was to go to La Sarthe and adjust each cars drag to tailor their top speeds according to their hp and I did this using the only to cars that I had hp and top speeds for. From there, I've been using the inertia values to further dial them in for their race lap times and general abilities. Btw, all top speeds were determined with their radiators closed off at 1 in the garage while the default atm is 3 (4 in garage). They currently don't have functioning brake duct adjustments so that drag didn't figure in to the top speed settings. I know how to make them adjustable but given they didn't have brake ducting back then and would change the whole darn body if cooling were needed, I've left it out for the time being. Would you rather it be functioning? I'm already contemplating adjusting the brake heating/cooling as it is since I've yet to see any brakes getting over-heated let alone, some have barely even turned green!

Thanks again for your kind comments chrisracer14. Much appreciated!

ps...I just ran a 1:13.2 with the M20  that was bloody intense!  

cr14 is right, they're just a tad too fast(but I was having fun, so didn't say anything  ). I tried it on a track I and they had been to before, to try for perspective, so Riverside was the one. I'm old/lucky enough to have seen the CanAm at RIR when they ran, and to have raced bikes there later on. As best as I can remember, the fastest CanAms were approaching 170-175? before the bowl, they were braking a tad before hitting "9",... THE Porsche (182)? (That car KILLED CANAM!) The sucker car was HATED!, it worked, but you really had to see the amount of shit that car spit out. It was pretty bad! Anyways, I left this MSG sitting for HOURS while not attending to the post (Cinco De Mayo cocktails)!........  so yes, slow it down just a tad, but keep going along the same lines, we can adjust........Thank You hmmguy for your interest/dedication to this class, but there is so little info on it, .........but they WERE the shit!!!!

Thanks for the input joeschmoe and I have to agree with you and cr14 about them being too fast. As a result, I've begun throwing reality out in order to bring reality in. By that I mean that I had been using the real weights of the cars along with what could be reasonably expected as their top speeds based on the Can-Am killer's hp and top speed attained. This is were simming vs the real thing becomes muddled as the real attributes make the cars too fast. So what I have done is increase their drag thereby lowering their top speeds by approximately 10mph as well as adding more weight to them each. On a track like Bridgehampton, I'm seeing the cars running 3 to 4 seconds per lap slower although this is still too fast by comparison to their actual times run. The only true way I can get the times up to what they really ran would be to give them far less grip then they currently have which is exactly what I don't want. If I did so we are then back to having cars we can't really get the most out of sitting at our computers and the overall fun factor goes out the window. I never set out to recreate the cars to have the exact same abilities overall because they would be largely frustrating more so than fun. Sorry if that isn't what you guys are hoping for. The only thing I can think of is to come up with a less grippy tire that you could sub in if that's your preference while leaving the more grippy tires for those that don't care so much about the lap times and overall abilities being realistic as the default tires. What do you think of this as a potential option?

I didn't mind the tire model, of course it's too grippy, that's why you can get away with murder, stuff that would never happen in real life, fun!.........

hmmguy,

You are faced with a difficult situation at best. Less grip and a lot of complaints about cars that are too hard to drive, too much grip and everyone complains they drive "like they're on rails".

It is hard to get the right feel for how the grip should be. I think the difficulty comes in because of several reasons, 1) there are no external forces to give you feedback (inertia, gravity, etc..), 2) we don't know what the real cornering speeds of these cars was. We can estimate the top end and acceleration based on hp vs weight and gearing. I have been racing for the better part of 38 years and have seen many changes in tires, suspensions and aerodynamics that have affected cornering speeds. When these cars were kings of the road they were using very simple suspension dynamics. They did not have the multi adjustable shocks, push rod suspensions and such. Most of the games allow too much adjustment that wasn't there in those days. As an example, the double adjustable Penske shocks on my current race car have 625 different settings that can be used. Multiply that by 4 and add in ever adjustable spring rates, cockpit adjustable anti roll bars and cockpit adjustable brake bias and on and on.

If you do adjust the tire grip, make it very slight and make sure it is balanced so that the cars are not sliding off ass end first. Even in the past rubber held the road. A car should coast thru a corner and still grip. It should really only break when too much throttle is given. I've never driven a real Can Am car but I cannot imagine that they handled badly or slid all over the road (unless under extreme duress). Keep in mind that they were the fastest cars in their day but yet today cars such as mine with only 190hp can turn faster laps at the same tracks then they did with 800 plus HP.

Hey cr14, perhaps you can finally resolve this for me once and for all.  What should the water temperature be if the optimum oil temp of the engine is 104.6 or 95 as examples?

I have another question I'm hoping to resolve and it is in regard to the Edmonton track the Can-Ams used to run there. Is it the same as the airport one we have in GTR2? If it's not, does the proper track exist in GTR2?

Thanks for this cr14. I guess what I was kind of intent on was to give these cars modern upgrades that they didn't have back in the day. It's something I've often wondered about and have even mentioned this in conversations in my life when auto racing was the subject and the what ifs and if onlys begin to fly. The Can-Am cars have always been the baddest cars to ever grace a race track to me regardless of whether the newer cars do the laps much quicker  It was always the could
you imagine if they had today's goodies?!     As far as the tires I've
done, how do you think they are? I've been trying to make them border on having a bit of push that
you need to adjust for in the garage or be savvy enough with the gas and steering wheel to get the front turning in better  It's quite hilarious using the M20 for a burnout as the tires are by far the biggest in the mod and what looks like they'd be nearly 2ft wide each, black strips they leave behind   
  

Something else I've done is re-do all of the engines to have more torque than they currently get by simply punching in the desired hp and Tom's engine shop increases the 2 uniformly. That's how the engine file is in the BRM you guys drove. Since then, I've happened across something suggesting that the car also had a 465ci engine along with the 496ci engine that you currently have. While there was no mention of the hp/torque figures for the 465ci, there is for the 496ci which is 760hp@6800rpm and 650lb/ft@5500rpm. So what I did with the 465ci was use the now corrected 496ci engine and drop it to 720hp and I lowered the redline to 6500rpm. This works out now to have 720hp@6500 and 610lb/ft @5400rpm. What I've found is that the roughly 75 extra lb/ft does indeed make the car need a bit more self control on the old explode-forward pedal  Again because I now have a known figure for the 496ci engine, I can now roughly guesstimate the torque levels as only hp is quoted usually. Again, it may not be exactly accurate but it's all I can do given the lack of data. I can't say as I can recall if I've modified the .tyr for this car since the one I supplied earlier but if I have, it was to make the temps work better for Bridgehampton. Be that as it may, here's the revised BRM P154 with the weight and drag increases I've made. The car you have now tops out around 228mph and this one only hits around 217mph. Actually, I just ran the BRMs and the tires seem fine. Let me know if you're finding otherwise. I also modified the .aud a bit more but it's still the same file so nothing new needed there. In this new version there are only the 2 .car files needed to reflect the new changes along with all of the other files needed for these 2 cars. Just place the game data file in to your game folder and say yes to the overwrites. One thing that is also now different is that you will have to pay attention to the engine temps and use the radiator settings in the garage. I believe I have it defaulted at 3 which should be okay but you guys can be the judge of that. Again, these settings were done for Bridgehampton '67 and I have no idea how they will work on other tracks. My goal was to make all five settings come in to play with 5 being the least likely to be used and 1 will certainly now see you trailing smoke after not too long   

As always, feedback is most welcome  

http://www.mediafire.com/download/uklw4ta84qb4uuo/New_BRM_P154_Cars.rar

Here's some eye/ear candy of all of the big block cars (70s) I made and uploaded to youtube




The only thing is though that the newly name .hdc/.eng/.aud files I made for them won't work with the other BRMs. The .car files and original cars won't be compatible atm so use only for practise or time trial. Sorry, I forgot to mention this.

hmmguy,

Thanks for the updates. Will take her out for a spin and let you know what I think.

Just a comment on the video, looked like I noticed a gen 2 Can Am car there in a couple of shots. Looked like a Lola.

Chris

you mean the Lola T333 in the beginning of the video. Yes, it looks like about a 10 year gap compared to the small block cars. It was apparently born as an open wheeler that was then morphed into a 2nd gen Can-Am car. I was really startled to find it was powered by a Chevy 305ci putting out about 550hp. From a performance side, it's great fun to toss around but there's no way to make up for the lack of brute force that the older big blocks have.

The only thing is though that the newly name .hdc/.eng/.aud files I made for them won't work with the other BRMs. The .car files and original cars won't be compatible atm so use only for practise or time trial. Sorry, I forgot to mention this.

I'll make a fix for it this. I remade the .hdc files into new names as well as the .aud and .eng files.
When doing this stuff, it gets really confusing with which car's which and the same as the engines. I made it much easier to follow if you do look at the files for the cars  In this case, I made a 465.hdc for the new car and then I renamed the old brmp.hdc to brmp_496ci.hdc. Hmm, now that I think about it, it would actually be better to delete the prior version as you will now have obsolete files in the folder. The new version I posted is the entire car files so it wouldn't make any change or be missing anything if you did delete it entirely and then install this one. Sorry for the f-up guys. The release will have all the team cars included with all the files corrected that need it such as the BRMs do.